ask vs. guess, boundary patrolling

[snugglekitty]

A few weeks ago, mzrowan posted a link to an article about "ask culture" versus "guess culture." See it here.

And today, theferrett made a post about how to patrol your own boundaries*. I would say that this encapsulates much of the concept behind Ask Culture. When it's Guess Culture, of course, you're not supposed to talk about how it works much (at least not to the concerned parties), you're supposed to Just Know.**

Recently I am considering a theory that part of why poly relationships work well for me is that they are more typically grounded in an "ask" model. In other words, it's generally understood that you are expected to negotiate the rules for your specific relationship on your own. In the world of monogamy, while some people negotiate their own rules there are also a lot of cultural scripts to navigate - other people's expectations can be very relevant. Also, from my limited experience, it seems you are often supposed to know how it works without saying anything. I am reminded of something about, "Do I tell my new partner that I am not seeing other people anymore, or is that too much pressure to put on them?" that I see in women's magazines on occasion.

What do you think? Is monogamy more of a guessing situation by default? Am I off-base? Do you belong to guess culture, or ask culture?

* I strongly agree with almost all of this post. The only part I don't agree with is that friends should only ask for favors occasionally. I am fine with friends asking for favors all the time - I just look for a reasonable balance between "favors out" and "favors in."
** Though I no longer practice Guess Culture, one thing that Ask Culture doesn't always factor into account is that not everyone feels empowered to say no to requests, or knows how to do so.

Comments

[gentlescholar.livejournal.com]

The second link is the same as the first.
But I just friended theferrett anyway, because wow he seems to be an intelligent writer.

[lady-anemone.livejournal.com]

Thanks for telling me, the linkage is fixed.

[pink-pet.livejournal.com]

Interesting post, and interesting one that you linked to.

I was raised in a Guess Culture, but now am much more of an Ask Culture type person. I think poly works a lot better when it is Ask-based. And I can see how it would be really, really hard to work if it is Guess-based.

But I don't think it's quite as clear cut that poly is Ask and Mono is Guess.

I would start by saying that monogamy is assumption-based. That we all have an assumption of how a monogamous relationship works and most of us assume that everyone shares our assumptions.

So it'd be possible for someone to be raised in an Ask Culture but be in a mono relationship and not ask about things because they don't realize they need to ask. Because they think they are on the same page as their partner.

I think that to have an Ask-based mono relationship means that you are comfortable being Ask-based and you are able to question a bunch of cultural assumptions you may not even realize you have.

In general, I think it's easier to question, or to see, your assumptions about relationships when you are poly because there is no blueprint for how poly relationships "should" be.

And in poly, as I say, I think it works much better when it is Ask-based. I think it's harder for it to be Guess-based, but there are people who try and push their poly relationship into a mono mold. It doesn't work well, but they try none-the-less.

[heresiarch.livejournal.com]

i agree with pink_pet that monogamy is largely guess-based because it's normative -- the rules are implicit and shared culturally. polyamory requires explicitly negotiating expectations because most people aren't equipped with implicit norms of how to be ethically non-monogamous. i think monogamy could often benefit from more explicit negotiations since people are often mistaken in those assumptions.

that being said, i also agree with your caveat that sometimes asking puts unwanted pressure on the person being asked. i'd like to think that social relations benefit from a balance between reading other people's nonverbal communication and being sensitive to context, and being able to discuss interests and desires openly. i get frustrated by people who think that voicing a request openly should naturally lead to acquiescence.

[lady-anemone.livejournal.com]

I really liked your comment here, thanks for chiming in.

Yes, guess-based because it's normative. Not that we think that everyone should be puzzling things out, but because we think that the answers are obvious. Everyone has a different Right Way but this can sometimes only show up under scrutiny or stress testing.

One thing that your second paragraph reminds me of is the way that touch is handled in some communities that talk a lot about negotiation and consent. Mostly I'm thinking of stuff like hugging other people at poly munches and the like, sometimes consent is assumed for that. I also remember being at an adult event and one of the presenters saying that he thought it should be cool to touch people there without asking, with the understanding that if they said stop you should stop. To me that felt like a bit of a position of privilege. Not everyone is happy to be touched by strangers and not everyone has the tools or comfort to say no.

[pink-pet.livejournal.com]

I was at a swingers party where they practiced "assumed consent", meaning you could touch and if the person didn't want you to touch they'd say so. It was very weird for the three of us coming from BDSM events where you are expected to ask first for everything and anything. We felt very uncomfortable at the event, but people did stop as soon as we asked them to.

I wanted to add to another point as well. I don't think being Ask-based relieves the person from reading non-verbal communication. Because some people have a hard time saying no, when I do ask directly, I'm careful to read body language and other cues so I know that a "yes" is really a yes and not a no.

[lady-anemone.livejournal.com]

"I don't think being Ask-based relieves the person from reading non-verbal communication. Because some people have a hard time saying no, when I do ask directly, I'm careful to read body language and other cues so I know that a "yes" is really a yes and not a no."

Absolutely. And there are nuances of verbal communication as well - there's a big difference between someone saying "Okay, I guess so," and "Oh yes, that sounds great!" If someone says "Okay" I try to do further probing to make sure it really is.

[libitina]

wait - quick context check - is this the same TheFerrett from the WisCon Open Source Boob Project?

That said, my monogamous parents raised me pretty solidly in the ask culture, and I have such internal mantras as:

• Go ahead and ask. What's the worst that happens? They say no.
• Or, in reply to a question - "I don't know, but keep asking questions, kid. How else are you going to learn?" (that's a quote from some book... possibly a Star Trek novelization)

Hmm... though, actually, it was more complicated than that. We never went into the land of guessing, but it was always very clear that some requests couldn't be asked because just asking created a social imposition.

Inviting yourself over to someone's house was right out. Standing around going, "Oh, you're doing a thing that day? I don't think I have anything planned. I bet you'll have a lot of fun that day I'm not doing anything," is pushing the line about as hard as you can. So you can communicate, but you have to do so in social code.

As I've grown up and socialized with people who have not had social code ingrained into them, I've adopted a much more blunt approach of making the requests but also being very clear and very serious that No really is an acceptable answer. It's been working pretty well.

[lady-anemone.livejournal.com]

Yup, this is the same TheFerrett. I had been following him for a while already when that happened.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. That's very interesting. I have been trying to make it easier for people to say no to me, because I think that's hard for a lot of people and I had trouble with it for so long. At this point I try to start by saying, "Feel free to say no to this..." and finish by saying, "Thanks for saying no. I wouldn't have wanted you to agree and feel uncomfortable about it," or something like that.

[findingthegirl.livejournal.com]

My relationship with cystennin is not polyamorous, but neither is it completely monogamous. I find that the dynamic I share with him is the least normative, most "ask-based" romantic relationship I've ever experienced- and I've been involved in a wide variety of relationships, from very strict monogamy to politicized radical polyamory. I have to say that it sometimes feels like some poly people believe themselves to be more evolved as human beings because of their relationship preferences. I know that's not what you're meaning to say here, but it still hits a nerve. Yes, monogamy is society's default relationship standard and it often goes unquestioned, but there are people out there who make a very conscious choice in the direction of monogamy. After a whole lot of soul-searching and hours of discussion, I am one of them.

[lady-anemone.livejournal.com]

"I have to say that it sometimes feels like some poly people believe themselves to be more evolved as human beings because of their relationship preferences. I know that's not what you're meaning to say here, but it still hits a nerve."

I'm sorry I hit that nerve. It exists in me, too - I DON'T believe that polyamory is a more evolved form of relating or that polyamorists are more evolved human beings, and it bugs me when people say so.

I also think that you have very intentional and examined relationships. I didn't at all mean to suggest otherwise. I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt.